And so I would say if youre a Protestant, for Protestants and Catholics, if the Marian dogmas can occupy at least that place. Thats all I wanted to say. First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. The YouTube show, which was created by Kyle Curtis and Steve McRae, often featured interesting guests, such as Hugh Ross, Inspiring Philosophy, Shannon Q, Sy Garte, Matt Dillahunty, Paulogia, Lawrence Krauss, and more. And thats why I went [inaudible 01:47:13] and why I argued, how is it used specifically in the New Testament? And I already cited Greek scholars like Bill Mounce and New Testament scholars, like Richard Bauckham, who agree with me that adelphi has a broader semantic range than what Steve has brought up here. Christie's career in Buffalo spanned 144 regular season games and a 78.3 success rate on field goals. So its irrelevant. In the Darby translation of the New Testament, where in second Thessalonians Chapter 2, when it talks about worshiping images and worshiping idols, it actually uses the word veneration and it literally can be translated worship. So theres nothing in scripture that contradicts that. This is known as [inaudible 01:09:50]. All right. Heres my thought on that. So it must be used in some other way. Also death is not a sign of being a sinner, as Steve alluded to earlier. [These verses] cannot figure as crown witnesses for the view that the Old Testament canon in Jesus days was fixed and closed (The Blood from Abel to Zachariah). Now Steve says, Well, Luke wouldve used, monogenes, only begotten. Since Christians are not bound to accept their ideas about what Scripture meant regarding the messiah or the need to follow the Mosaic law, we arent bound to follow what they considered to be the boundaries of the canon, which was disputed even among the Pharisees. And one little historical note so that people Theres a bit of a myth here. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. Im running out of time. Thats why theyre diverging traditions on whether Mary died or not, but you dont find the first denial of Marys assumption until in the late early middle ages. But if their authority is a Roman Catholic church and the Magisterium, then it becomes an authority issue because then youre submitting to an authority that is also teaching something different about salvation that has nothing to do with these dogmas. And these brothers still struggle on the same land 3,800 years later. Steve Hays (1959-2020) We just learned that Steve Hays has passed away in a hospice. But I mean, some of the early ones, Id probably Definitely not Judas Iscariot. More on that in a moment. When Mary said, I know not man, in Luke 1:34, does this indicate a vow of perpetual virginity? Philosophy program at Talbot. No, I can think of anything like that, but I would say that Marys status as being the God bearer would mean thered be many truths that are quite unique to her that we dont find in either old or New Testament. If this verse in Psalm 69 is applied non-literally to Jesus, the verse that talks about, My mothers sons, can also be applied in a non-literal way. So the Immaculate Conception does not contradict scripture then. Okay. And he told the Thessalonians who that was, but we dont know who that was, and [inaudible 01:06:25] biblical scholars have had many different answers and we dont know much the same this particular truth about whether Mary died or not. So idolatry, according to the catechism and paragraph 2113 says idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. And Steve has not ruled that out. The first is if you are watching right now and you are not yet subscribed to this YouTube channel, click subscribe, click the bell button. The other reason was that as a Canadian citizen, playing one game in the CFL, would be great way to finish his career. In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. In fact, as Baptist scholar Lee Mcdonald points out, the book of Malachi only implores its listeners to remember the law of Moses, which would be strange if there were a fixed set of writings established by Ezra called the prophets at this time. Offering a sacrifice to Mary would be an inappropriate. In 2014, Christie was diagnosed with colorectal cancer. By that argument, St. Anne would also have to be immaculately conceived. And remember this is the focus of our debate, how its used in scripture. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. In fact, the Protestant reformers, John Calvin said of Matthew 1:25, No just and well grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the evangelist as to what took place after the birth of Christ. Martin Luther even called this argument against Marys Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification. He says, of Jacob and Esau in Rebeccas womb, they were not yet born and had done nothing, either good or bad.This means children who die in early childhood represent millions of examples of people who never committed a personal sin in their entire lives. Timothy Michael Law, who serves as the co-editor of the Oxford Handbook on the Septuagint, says the deuterocanonical books were included in the Septuagint and that it would also be mistaken to imagine that they have never been read as divine Scripture.. Christie also claims Jesus reference to the Pharisee Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel (John 3:10) meant the Pharisees had unique teaching authority over other Jews. And so it would fulfill the promise in Philippians 3:21 that says, Our bodies, lowly bodies, will be transformed like his heavenly body, Christ. Second thing I want to point out is you should consider joining our locals community. Protestants disagree. In the 2000 season, Christie was an instrumental part of the Bills' eight victories. Its a word that really should be used strictly for God. But let me get to that point about death though. Welcome to The Counsel of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers. Contrary to what Steve said this has been infallibly defined, though before the ex cathedra statements of the First Vatican Counsel. Thats because they quoted primarily from the Septuagint, or the Greek Old Testament. Well, the relevance is the fact that the word adelphos for brother, the primary meaning means a biological sibling, so unless theres a reason in the context of [inaudible 01:13:28]. Yeah, no, Im grateful for Steve to take part in this. Also, Paul drew extensively on themes from the deuterocanonical works in his own writings. Steve, we just heard from David Wright, the clock is ticking, those batteries could run out by early next week. He was put on a cross. They have also lived in Garden City Park, NY and Bayside, NY. Were going to be taking those questions. Mary was able to do something that Jesus didnt. Therefore Mary would not need to be assumed to heaven to keep her from seeing death if she were conceived sinless. Thank you. Landlord. Well, the kinsfolk, you can have relatives that dont know very much about you or misunderstand you. Otherwise things leading up to it, we could interpret them either in a broader sense. So Ill send you a link, you could put that [inaudible 01:35:07] as well. No, of course not. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. Okay. Because the details about whether she died or not have not been given to us in the deposit of faith, that particular fact has not been given to us. Get a Quote *The mortgage payment quiz is for estimation purposes only. All serious students of God's Word need to know these Christian apologists below. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. What we can find in the writings of the Church Fathers, however, are hundreds of citations of the deuterocanonical books as inspired Scripture. As far as adelphos, I dont have a problem with the word adelphos, but my question is, why would you abandon its primary meaning for another meaning when it doesnt demand it? We wouldnt expect it. The Greek grammarian Bill Mounce, who writes a whole textbook on Ancient Greek, says that adelphi means, sister, near kinswoman, or female relative. When it comes to [Greek 00:39:49], I already showed that both in the Septuagint and also in contemporary literature, it does not require a reversal of condition, so it can be used here in Matthew 1:25 in this way. You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. In the declaration on the specific dogma, the immaculate conception of Mary, theres absolutely nothing in the dogma itself that says anything that this part is infallible. Lets take a look here. Regarding the Immaculate Conception, the other Pope declared, but not infallibly, the most blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception was preserved free from all stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to believe firmly and constantly by all the faithful. The resolution for this debate is the Marian Dogmas contradict scripture. We honor our father who is in heaven, and we give honor to Mary, who is the mother of God that brought our savior into the world. From 1992 to 2000, Christie kicked for Buffalo. The danger of submitting to this fallible authority extends to submitting to their authority of their unbiblical view of salvation of infusion of grace through the sacraments, which also contradicts Scripture, which teaches justification by imputation of grace by faith alone. Select this result to view Steven Luke Christie's phone number, address, and more. Of course, that is not what we are debating today. They were committed to Sola scriptura but we also have to remember that even though they were formers, they were also Roman Catholics and their issue with Romans was not about Marian dogmas, it was about the authority of scripture over the authority of the church. Did some Jews during this time recognize the inspiration of these texts? Matthew was simply not concerned with telling us what did happen after Jesus was born. And eventually those ended up being dropped throughout the debate. In fact, the authors of these texts, such as Sirach, described writing down Gods wisdom to indicate they were writing Scripture, which wouldnt make sense if they thought the canon was closed. And Steve has said, Well, we know theres an exception because the Bible says that Jesus is the exception. So clearly, then, that means the Bible can make universal statements, but sources of divine revelation can give us those exceptions. Yeah. And also I know others whove done a lot of work on this. It has nothing to do with Mary being the ark. After chemotherapy and radiation treatments in Buffalo, he underwent two successful surgeries at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio. Well, the Septuagint was a Greek translation that was finished around 134 BC. Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Baruch as the prophet, cites Baruch 3:35-37 in defense of the deity of Christ and includes Baruch in the writings of Jeremiah in his list of the canon. Campbell states that when it comes to Josephus claims about a universal Hebrew canon, as well as an entire manuscript tradition that had never been altered, Josephuss rhetoric has run ahead of reality. When Isaiah prophecy states that the virgin will bear a son, it is not implying her virginal integrity remained intact after his birth, nor that her virginity would extend throughout her entire life, but only to stress that the Messiahs birth would be supernatural and that Jesus was divine. On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. The dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary contradicts scripture in the following ways. So I would actually tell people to focus more on that. Trent, you have 10 minutes to cross examine Steve, whenever you begin. Theyll say that I dont believe it, but Steve might say it doesnt contradict scripture necessarily. Another piece of evidence against Christies claim that divine revelation ceased during the time of the deuterocanonical books is that the people of Jesus time believed there were contemporary prophets who spoke on behalf of God, such as John the Baptist and Jesus. Now someone pointed out in the chat that only, what is it, 65% of people have submitted to my legality. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. 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